Bob Barnes 大師談什麼是 expert

[skier666]

BB 的圖解做的真好

[ams]

BB 的圖解做的真好

什麼圖解?
btw, 你覺得他說 pivot slip 和 tfr 的分別如何, 合理嗎

[skier666]

我們常偷用的那張圖

[skier666]

btw, 你覺得他說 pivot slip 和 tfr 的分別如何, 合理嗎

我沒看到也。在epic嗎

[ams]

可貼一下那圖嗎?

以下的是從 epic 貼過來的. 他還很氣的說不會示範這[能做到]的動作.

CarverHK--although I am loath to see this thread derailed into one of "those" discussions, let me assure you that there is nothing--absolutely nothing--"new," unique, or proprietary about the so-called "two-footed release." It is merely one of many movement options, and within it lie many variants exploiting distinct rotary mechanisms and combinations, and variations of fore-aft and foot-to-foot pressure. Edge release as the initiation of a turn--and in particular, release of the downhill ski edge without the need to reduce the pressure or lift it off the snow--is the fundamental essence of what PSIA once called the "Center Line(TM)" Model of skiing. The Model was introduced in the later 1980's, and the two-footed release (sometimes then called, unfortunately, a "moving platform") was the primary distinguisher from the edgeset-rebound/stem/step/pushoff initiation that had been the main focus for many years prior (although it was based on the recognition that racers had added the "release" initiation to their repertoire already for years).

In many ways, the "two-footed release" you refer to is nothing more (and somewhat less, in my opinion) than what I call the "pivot-slip" drill. The main differences are that the version you bring up relies on a firmly planted, forward-angled pole plant to drive the rotational force--the lever arm--that pivots the skis (the pole plant is a critical necessity in descriptions I've heard and demonstrations I've seen), while a pivot slip involves both legs rotating against the resistance of each other, in the hip sockets, with no need for upper body involvement whatsoever. In truth, both variants make good drills and, yes, it is very easy for any half-decent and aware expert to imitate the version you describe.

And that brings up the second major difference. The pivot slip is merely a drill intended to develop several critical and universal skiing skills, while the so-called "two-footed release" is often suggested as "the way to ski." As I've said, drills are not skiing!

It is ironic that the "two-footed release" you refer to traditionally arises from a prescribed progression that begins with a lift of the downhill ski--a move that is the distinct opposite of the tipping-based release of the "two-footed release." Done "properly," the two-footed release eliminates the need to remove pressure from the downhill ski in order to release its grip on the mountain (although it does not eliminate the possibility of reducing pressure, it merely adds options). That (the pushoff-based "lift") is an inexplicable glitch in the progression, sometimes leading students away (literally) from the "into-the-turn" movements of a real two-footed release. That's a problem, in my opinion.

Anyway, to make a long story short, and to return to your original inquiry, no, it is not at all difficult for a good and unbiased skier to make the movements you refer to. There are plenty of videos of pivot slips around to see it in action. Doing it with a "blocking pole plant," as your dogmatic methodology prescribes, only makes it easier. Still a useful exercise, though, it develops reliance on what I consider to be a bad habit--the blocking pole plant.

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

from : http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/949 ... st_1235800

[skier666]

可貼一下那圖嗎?

以下的是從 epic 貼過來的. 他還很氣的說不會示範這[能做到]的動作.

from : http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/949 ... st_1235800

thank you. i found it and was reading it. The TFR he is criticizing is different. I personally don't think there is a blocking pole plant. Do you think there is a blocking pole plant

[ams]

thank you. i found it and was reading it. The TFR he is criticizing is different. I personally don't think there is a blocking pole plant. Do you think there is a blocking pole plant

In the stationary tfr i ll say yes. In linked no.
Actually he talked about the history of skiing that my austrian teacher taught me already. he said pmts is a new version of the oldest technique. what i ll say its difficult for real expert to imitate is eliminating the rotational effort, which psia relied upon in their skiing.

[PSBoy]

Bob Barnes is a real expert because he demonstrated how to use this word 'blocking'. So, next time I will use blocking counter, blocking flex, and so on to criticize others...haha!

[PSBoy]

In the stationary tfr i ll say yes...

Why do you say that? Could you explain a bit?

[taichiskiing]

thank you. i found it and was reading it. The TFR he is criticizing is different. I personally don't think there is a blocking pole plant. Do you think there is a blocking pole plant

Didn't know that he was talking about snowbender, your truly, interesting,

And so, I like the skiing of Snowbender in his video clip. While it is not the style that I would usually prefer for myself, and it alone does not make him an expert, I contend that few skiers on any mountain could imitate him. Any true expert could easily imitate his movements and "style" if he wanted to. While it is true that few experts ski like him (very often), it is also true that anyone who cannot ski like Snowbender is certainly not an expert.

Anyone would benefit from turning Snowbender's "style" into a drill and seeking to master it, even if you don't like skiing that way. In ways that perhaps few might understand, Snowbender's "exercise" is helping him master many important nuances of expert skiing, including subtle edge control, mastery of rotational (angular) momentum, and fore-aft balance. As an exercise, he is developing a "touch" that few skiers have, but all would benefit from.

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/949 ... st_1235744

As he practices what he preaches, "be able to eliminate personal biases" and sees goodness in other "style," and praises it against the tides, he is truly a master.

For years I was battling with them epicski's bears and 'net bashers' what I called "shameless bashing," his post vindicates my actions. Thanks, Bob Barnes. I'll write another post to address his points, really good one.

:)
IS

[skier666]

So you are snowbender. Flash is disabled on my browser so I did not pay attention

[taichiskiing]

The following is his entire post,
http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/949 ... st_1235744

This is a nice thread, and I agree completely with SkiMangoJazz's comparison of skiing drills with the musician's practicing of (boring) scales and such. It's not about perfecting the drill, or the arpeggio, chord change, or fingering. The drills and scales develop skills, in ways both obvious and specific, and subtle and global. They develop discipline, and only on a foundation of discipline can virtuosos truly express themselves. There is a vast difference between the disciplined athlete, musician, dancer, or engineer "improvising" and an unskilled, undisciplined person just wingin' it.

In this paragraph, he is talking about how to use drills/practice to develop "discipline," and complaining about how unskilled undisciplined persons just want to learn just to show off their skills, without seeking training in "discipline" first.

A true expert--and particularly an expert instructor--can quickly and easily imitate the style and movements of virtually any skier on the mountain. Upon the foundation of discipline developed through practicing exercises and drills, through intentionally exploring and mastering the entire spectrum of movement possibilities, they can ski any way they choose--not just the only way they can. That's freedom! When free-skiing, great skiers--including instructors--express their unique individual style. (Yes, unfortunately, it is true that some skiers and instructors have forgotten that the scales are not the music, and that drills are the means to freedom, not the goal themselves. But that's another story, and those people are far from experts.) But it is the highest level of achievement to be able to eliminate personal biases at will and demonstrate movements uncluttered by personal style, or to adopt the movements and mannerisms of another skier at will. Experts can ski like anyone. The reverse is not true!

And this paragraph is talking about how through "discipline" to develop techniques and skills. And most importantly, after you've learned, "the highest level of achievement to be able to eliminate personal biases," forget about them; that's to say, expert skiers don't hold on their systems but venture out to experience the possibilities of "entire spectrum of movement," that's high level skiing's "real skiing."

And so, I like the skiing of Snowbender in his video clip. While it is not the style that I would usually prefer for myself, and it alone does not make him an expert, I contend that few skiers on any mountain could imitate him. Any true expert could easily imitate his movements and "style" if he wanted to. While it is true that few experts ski like him (very often), it is also true that anyone who cannot ski like Snowbender is certainly not an expert.

Here he gives an example what expert skiing should look like.

Anyone would benefit from turning Snowbender's "style" into a drill and seeking to master it, even if you don't like skiing that way. In ways that perhaps few might understand, Snowbender's "exercise" is helping him master many important nuances of expert skiing, including subtle edge control, mastery of rotational (angular) momentum, and fore-aft balance. As an exercise, he is developing a "touch" that few skiers have, but all would benefit from.

Here's his suggestion how to practice and to improve one's skiing.

And that's what drills really are. They are not skiing. They are an intentional divergence from one's personal "style" for the sake of broadening and deepening skill, touch, and movement options. Style is a great thing, but when it becomes a bias, it imprisons and limits, rather than freeing and supporting expression. Exercises are often an attempt to find pure form, unadulterated by personal bias, in the name of discipline. Discipline which, as skating champion Elvis Stojko famously said, sets you free!

Here's an important message, "practice drills is not real skiing," but the highest form of skiing is to "ultimately" set yourself free.

Best regards,
Bob

Good stuff, :)
IS

[Vicente]

..................................................................................................
Here's an important message, "practice drills is not real skiing," but the highest form of skiing is to "ultimately" set yourself free.



Good stuff, :)
IS

[skier666]

The following is his entire post,
http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/949 ... st_1235744



In this paragraph, he is talking about how to use drills/practice to develop "discipline," and complaining about how unskilled undisciplined persons just want to learn just to show off their skills, without seeking training in "discipline" first.



And this paragraph is talking about how through "discipline" to develop techniques and skills. And most importantly, after you've learned, "the highest level of achievement to be able to eliminate personal biases," forget about them; that's to say, expert skiers don't hold on their systems but venture out to experience the possibilities of "entire spectrum of movement," that's high level skiing's "real skiing."



Here he gives an example what expert skiing should look like.



Here's his suggestion how to practice and to improve one's skiing.



Here's an important message, "practice drills is not real skiing," but the highest form of skiing is to "ultimately" set yourself free.



Good stuff, :)
IS

BB makes a fair statement but I think there should be more people seeing the same thing